(edit title) Is Sweden an Apartheid State? De Facto and De jure any difference? Options

[krigeren]

the thing is, we're all immigrants who usually don't speak very good swedish. That hampers your ability to succeed. Just like all those poles at home who can't spe ... (show full quote)

the thing is, we're all immigrants who usually don't speak very good swedish. That hampers your ability to succeed. Just like all those poles at home who can't speak english properly. They're the ones serving our drinks and cleaning our drains. theres nothing sinister about it. it's just the obvious outcome of the situation we're in. I mean, I have almost NOTHING to do with swedish society. I'm British, I speak english, I like my Queen, I like my anthem, I like our culture and identity. Most of my mates are British (ethnically speaking, not just poltiically - auzzies, kiwis, irish, scots, canadians etc). I do't relate to swedish society, I do my best to avoid speaking swedish. I don't have many swedish friends. I don't like swedish sports, I dont like swedish tv, I don't like swedish food...needless to say I'm not raking in the cash, But it's my doing. Sweden didn't make me a factory worker. I did it. If I got involved and learnt the language things might be different... ... (hide full quote)

It would be great if you would get involved and learn the language. If you do, you will still hit ceilings here that really should not exist. There harmful to the immigrant but also to the society overall. I sort of see it that you are in it for yourself and not so interested in the solidarity part of it..thats fine, would not expect everyone to jump on the band wagon.

[Schomberg]

Sweden doesn't owe us anything though. A guy once said to me - why should I hire an immigrant with only ok swedish and perfect english when I can hire a swede with perfect swedish and pretty good english. made a lot of sense to me. The other side of this though is, why not go out and start your own business? Theres three types of British immigrants t sweden. The first lot are the lucky ones, the ones that were brought over to work in a company. They're set from the get go. The second are the ones who started they're own businesses and did well, doing their own thing. And the third are basically the ones like me, the majority, who didn't intergate at all into swedish society and are usually doing low skilled jobs. service industry, manual labour etc . we're all in it for ourselves mate. No ones going to do shit for you. you need to do it yourself. Now, if you're taking about blacks and arabs, then I think you may have a point. But as regards us. I just don't see it.

interesting discussion though...

[krigeren]

Regardless whether Sweden owes us anything or not it is not the point. It is about immigrants banding together, organizing, and working for positive change. Positive change is good for the society overall, i.e., the tax base.

To say that Sweden owes an immigrant anything as an end point to immigrants self actualizing their own life's is simply self destructive. Its up to us to seize our part of the pie here...we will go further doing it collectively.

I see blacks and arabs as you put it, as minorities and many whom are immigrants. I often find that immigrants from third or second world nations are more motivated and better workers in blue collar jobs than people from 1st world countries, who have grown up relatively pampered.

I think its a tough pill for many 1st world immigrants to swallow their outlook here, I mean from an employer standpoint (I say this as a immigrant who employs people), that, yes, the majority of time I rather hire people from the 3rd world because they have more of a fight in them than Brits, Americans, etc...Generally speaking.

I run my own business. I am not British.

[Schomberg]

Regardless whether Sweden owes us anything or not it is not the point. It is about immigrants banding together, organizing, and working for positive change. Positive change is ... (show full quote)

Regardless whether Sweden owes us anything or not it is not the point. It is about immigrants banding together, organizing, and working for positive change. Positive change is good for the society overall, i.e., the tax base.

To say that Sweden owes an immigrant anything as an end point to immigrants self actualizing their own life's is simply self destructive. Its up to us to seize our part of the pie here...we will go further doing it collectively. ... (hide full quote)

what postive change do you want? I'm only speaking from my experience and the change would need to be made tot he attitude of the immigrants themselves. Personally, I'm not interested in swedish society, much to my missus annoyance and I suspect that that is the problem you'll run into with many of the 1st world immigrants, especially those of British ethnicity - English, Scots, Irish, Auzzies etc...

I see blacks and arabs as you put it, as minorities and many whom are immigrants. I often find that immigrants from third or second world nations are more motivated and better ... (show full quote)

I see blacks and arabs as you put it, as minorities and many whom are immigrants. I often find that immigrants from third or second world nations are more motivated and better workers in blue collar jobs than people from 1st world countries, who have grown up relatively pampered. ... (hide full quote)

I agree. I just meant that when it comes to blacks and arabs, I do see them having a problem with discrimination in Sweden.

[skane refugee]

I agree that Sweden is an extremely segregated country, however, to say that it is due to racism is an oversimplification.Sweden is simply not a meritocracy. Of course merit a ... (show full quote)

I agree that Sweden is an extremely segregated country, however, to say that it is due to racism is an oversimplification.
Sweden is simply not a meritocracy. Of course merit and qualifications count, but unless you have the right connections you will never be able to compete truly. Combine this with the Swedish conformity and fear of change and you get a segregated society.
It is not discrimination based on skin colour or nationality; it is discrimination based on who you went to school with, which area you grew up, which university you attended, etc. It is a matter of class. ... (hide full quote)

Great post Bender

I have a couple of friends from ethnic/immigrant backgrounds who have succeeded spectacularly in Sweden, but they both arrived pre-high school age and accumulated the necessary contacts and friends at the right local schools and universities etc together with achieving an excellent degree of language and cultural familiarity before they approached the job market

Therefore I wouldn't agree that there's some sort of de facto apartheid excluding non-ethnic Swedes from the best jobs based on their skin colour, religion, nationality etc that should be addressed by quotas etc

Rather, IMHO, adult migrants to Sweden need to be aware that because the Swedish job market is not primarily driven by meritocratic considerations, and because consensus and conformity are so highly prized, they somehow need to accumulate/replicate the contact network and language/cultural understanding that they would have naturally acquired had they migrated as school kids or otherwise grown up in Sweden

IMHO, it is also extremely important for Swedish 'other halves' who drag 'love migrants' to Sweden to recognise and acknowledge these key barriers to meaningful employment here, and to provide all assistance in terms of introductions to contact networks etc, ideally before any move here

Good luck to one and all!

[superturbo]

-Two Thirds of immigrants who arrive here still cannot find jobs after two years. That number is ridiculous, its something to be ashamed of. It hurts the Swedish economy overa ... (show full quote)

-Two Thirds of immigrants who arrive here still cannot find jobs after two years. That number is ridiculous, its something to be ashamed of. It hurts the Swedish economy overall and is reduces the morale of the immigrant. ... (hide full quote)

And why do you think it's like this? Is it because everyone's a racist or simply because there are not enough work availible? How can someone that barely can speak any Swedish at all expect to get a job when there are very few jobs availible?

Many of the immigrants that come here have only basic education (or sometimes not even that) and adding to that they are not very good in Swedish of course makes them less attractive to hire.

-I visit Swedish companies all of the time. It is very common to see blue collar workers from just about anywhere. However, white collar workers, its generally very Swedish, ... (show full quote)

-I visit Swedish companies all of the time. It is very common to see blue collar workers from just about anywhere. However, white collar workers, its generally very Swedish, barring either international companies. This is not some myth, there is a clear division in this society between those with power, primarily indigenous Swedes, and minorities/immigrants. Those with the power are purposely maintaining that power to keep minorities and immigrants out. I and many other immigrants and minorities have seen it so many times here its like its systematized. ... (hide full quote)

It's true that it's less common with foreign collar workers, but again, you can generally forget getting a job like that unless you are skilled in Swedish. I've seen several foreign white collar workers here in Sweden, but what differs them from most other immigrants here is that they're usually very good at Swedish. It might sound unfair to you but compare that to many other countries in which they don't even hire foreigners or have them working under significantly worse conditions than a national citizen, and you'll realise that Sweden is not all too bad after all.

[krigeren]

what postive change do you want? I'm only speaking from my experience and the change would need to be made tot he attitude of the immigrants themselves. Personally, I' ... (show full quote)

what postive change do you want? I'm only speaking from my experience and the change would need to be made tot he attitude of the immigrants themselves. Personally, I'm not interested in swedish society, much to my missus annoyance and I suspect that that is the problem you'll run into with many of the 1st world immigrants, especially those of British ethnicity - English, Scots, Irish, Auzzies etc... ... (hide full quote)

Primarily I want to see immigrants and minorities gaining positions of power within the society based upon their merit. I want to see companies embrace that concept because its good for their bottom line. If that does not work then affirmative action would have to take place and that would be unfortunate.

Call it a GNI index for immigrants and minorities. The current concept of social democracy here is stale and the system shows so much hypocrisy, particularly in regards to immigrants and minorities that if Sweden is to evolve, more forward, progress..and wants to maintain the social democracy...its needs to redefine it..come up with a social democracy 2.0 that is inclusive of everyone in this society.

Underneath that framework its about getting immigrants directed to jobs that create more jobs...export oriented jobs..don't offer some kommun job to an immigrant when a local could do it better..

We need a broad and deep scale work program here with business leaders, not government leaders, who are tasked with immigrants work here..those leaders should be primarily immigrants themselves and all doors should be opened to them to make it happen. If these investments are not made then we continue down the same old garden path..a path that does not work for most immigrants and is not healthy for the system here either.

Personally, I am not afraid of thinking big and what the possibilities are...immigrants/minorities and Swedes alike have to think big about it as well..

[krigeren]

And why do you think it's like this? Is it because everyone's a racist or simply because there are not enough work availible? How can someone that barely can speak any ... (show full quote)

And why do you think it's like this? Is it because everyone's a racist or simply because there are not enough work availible? How can someone that barely can speak any Swedish at all expect to get a job when there are very few jobs availible?

Many of the immigrants that come here have only basic education (or sometimes not even that) and adding to that they are not very good in Swedish of course makes them less attractive to hire. ... (hide full quote)

There is a great deal of untruth is what you are saying. I work with companies to place people based on their talents OTHER than Swedish.

In the marketplace there exists a BIG gap between what SFI prepares foreigners for and what employers require in terms of Swedish. Therefore, its about changing Swedish employers perception that Swedish is a must...otherwise 10's of thousands of immigrants will continue to sit out of work. Employers often need the skills these people have. Within a few months on the job most of the immigrants Swedish is "passable"..that's where they learn the language not in some class with a bunch of other immigrants.

Secondly...about 1/3rd of all immigrants including refugees have some sort of higher form of education..at least the ones I end up interviewing, including the aforementioned 1/3rd, about 2/3'rds have some sort of skill or work experience that is valuable. The myth that immigrants overall are uneducated or have poor skills is ridiculous.

It's true that it's less common with foreign white collar workers, but again, you can generally forget getting a job like that unless you are skilled in Swedish. I' ... (show full quote)

It's true that it's less common with foreign white collar workers, but again, you can generally forget getting a job like that unless you are skilled in Swedish. I've seen several foreign white collar workers here in Sweden, but what differs them from most other immigrants here is that they're usually very good at Swedish. It might sound unfair to you but compare that to many other countries in which they don't even hire foreigners or have them working under significantly worse conditions than a national citizen, and you'll realise that Sweden is not all too bad after all. ... (hide full quote)

Sweden is a democracy. The constitution clearly bars against discrimination. People are being discriminated against in the job market. Thats wrong...The US realized this same argument 50 years ago...during those first 30 years changes started to happen..and over the next 20 of those 50 years it came to be..and equality may not be universal in America, but it was achieved at some level..the pinnacle being Obama. Sweden must go through this same change if it believes it will end up having a place in the world as a nation of morality and ethics. It needs to do the right thing.

[nic_tester]

Methinks krigaren speaks in jest. Or krigaren be deranged.

[Kaethar]

Yeah, he must be kidding... surely?

I guess he doesn't realise Sweden was a relatively homogenous society up until 40 years ago. Immigrants often don't have the language skills or the connections to make it far whilst the second generation born here is still quite young. How can you expect many bosses of companies and such to be members of ethnic minorities?

Either krigeren is trolling or he's simply that ignorant.

Also, as a summary...

Migrant Integration Policy Index

Sweden: http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2549.html

Compared to, for example, Canada: http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2309.html

Enjoy.

[Security]

Sweden is Smut State where discrimination is based on mother tongue, family name and skin-colour (the things that you can’t basically change even if you would like to – interestingly not so much on religion as you can change that, neither on sexual orientation)

In my opinion the discrimination is not ideological but purely for economical reasons. There is a well executed and institutionalized propaganda about immigrants that exist to allow majority ethnic to use and abuse immigrant rights and steal money from their pocket accusing them for things that they are actually doing themself.

I believe all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to get their share of the power in this country and not be afraid of concentration camps,
as discrimination roots are not ideological, but actually pure smut.

[JoeSwede]

There's many posters here that contend that Swedish citizens are systematically denying jobs to immigrants. Please justify your claims...

[gplusa]

When I was employing staff in New Zealand, the CEO of my company told me that I wasn't to hire anyone if he couldn't pronounce their name. Anyone who believes that Sweden's attitude towards immigrants is any less inviting than their own country really has been living with their head in the sand.

[*Guest*]

I dont know what to say except: If you dont like it here; Move back home.

There are countries where immigrants live in tents.

There are countries even i EU where immigrants live on camps, What more do you want from Sweden? You have every possibilitie if you take it here in Sweden, Whining is not helping anyone.

[animalr]

having actually LIVED in an apartheid state for the majority of my life, I think you have no idea what you are talking about. To even consider the comparison is ridiculous and an insult to people who suffer real discimination and systematic exclusion.
Of course there is an ongoing need to develop the integration of minorities in Sweden - nobody denies that. But give me a break on the melodrama of calling it apartheid.