(edit title) Is Sweden an Apartheid State? De Facto and De jure any difference? Options

[Streja]

Ok read it now.

Funny.

[The Nine]

This applies to any country in the world. The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system.

There is a marked difference here. It is one thing to expect immigrant to come to Sweden with an open mind regarding cultural differences. It is absolutely correct that they should try to do this. How can you ever hope to intergate if you don't make an effort to respect another cultures ways? However, Furu makes an interesting statement relating to immigarnts being subserviant to 'the system' rather than trying to change it. I think that depends on the issue.

However, some issues transend national boundries and are not about a specific cultural difference. They are things that are BANG WRONG regardless of where you live in the world.
The person who is successful in applying for a job should be the best person for the job and not the best Swede for the job.

When you say The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system. You may as well say 'Foreginers will work in McDonalds and clean our houses until we decide differently.' Most European countries view Sweden as about 15 years behind when it comes to racial intergration. Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs.

It is one thing to make an effort to embrace a new culture. However, it is quite another to be a doctor or any other trained professional, and asked to shovel shit and be accused of 'not making an effort' if you refuse to do so.

I think Apartheid is a pretty strong word to use. However, within 6 months of living in Sweden I noticed something I have forever since refered to as 'passive racism' It's a bit like being a teenager and meeting your girlfriends well-to-do parents for the first time. They are very nice and polite to you, they feel obliged to make you feel welcome, but once you have left the house they will be doing all they can to ensure nothing becomes too permenant between you and their daughter. {no offense intended natch}

[Streja]

Yep, The Nine is right. Passive racism is quite common here and most Swedes are not aware of it and don't think about it because they don't have any problems themselves.

[Gustav- Fælbönnran]

Erhm, it was too long-winded so I decided not to finish reading it.

Wait- are you implying that people don't read my little narratives because they are too long?!

I pour my heart and soul into those stories, hoping to bring a little merriment into the lives of the dozens of people who read the discussion boards at the Local every day. And I ask nothing in return.

You wound me, Señorita O.

That story took me a good five or six minutes to write. That is time that I will never get back. And I have written about twenty of those stories, so that is like...like...twenty times five...oh, whatever, the point is that I am not feeling the love here.

And where is the other Gus, when we need her? Busy with Diaper Duty, I guess. When does Mzungu get back? I could use some laughs.

[Furu]

Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales ... (show full quote)

Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs. ... (hide full quote)

EU trained Doctors are allowed to work in Sweden. The licensing takes around 18 months to complete, one must speak the language though.

[krigeren]

Have you got anything against learning Swedish or using Swedish? I love my language and want to be able to use it in my own country. I also love English and use it on a daily ... (show full quote)

Have you got anything against learning Swedish or using Swedish? I love my language and want to be able to use it in my own country. I also love English and use it on a daily basis. I also speak Spanish. ... (hide full quote)

I have no problems with learning Swedish or using Swedish. I just see how companies here use the language as a barrier to employ people who are talented and qualified except for the language...which they will pick up if given a chance to work around people.

This barrier is very real...take for example all of the Swedish women that have men from Africa that I am trying to find work. These men all came from very competitive work environments and all have great skills and qualifications...the women have now realized just how discriminatory their culture is which before they were dating a black man is something they were not so acutely aware of.

There is a marked difference here. It is one thing to expect immigrant to come to Sweden with an open mind regarding cultural differences. It is absolutely correct that they s ... (show full quote)

There is a marked difference here. It is one thing to expect immigrant to come to Sweden with an open mind regarding cultural differences. It is absolutely correct that they should try to do this. How can you ever hope to intergate if you don't make an effort to respect another cultures ways? However, Furu makes an interesting statement relating to immigarnts being subserviant to 'the system' rather than trying to change it. I think that depends on the issue.

However, some issues transend national boundries and are not about a specific cultural difference. They are things that are BANG WRONG regardless of where you live in the world.
The person who is successful in applying for a job should be the best person for the job and not the best Swede for the job.

When you say The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system. You may as well say 'Foreginers will work in McDonalds and clean our houses until we decide differently.' Most European countries view Sweden as about 15 years behind when it comes to racial intergration. Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs.

It is one thing to make an effort to embrace a new culture. However, it is quite another to be a doctor or any other trained professional, and asked to shovel shit and be accused of 'not making an effort' if you refuse to do so.

I think Apartheid is a pretty strong word to use. However, within 6 months of living in Sweden I noticed something I have forever since refered to as 'passive racism' It's a bit like being a teenager and meeting your girlfriends well-to-do parents for the first time. They are very nice and polite to you, they feel obliged to make you feel welcome, but once you have left the house they will be doing all they can to ensure nothing becomes too permanent between you and their daughter. {no offense intended natch} ... (hide full quote)

Passive racism is racism...Swedish style racism is the most difficult type of racism to combat because largely it has been disguised. The Socialist Democrats are not starting to publicly display that racism but they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Secondly...I wholeheartedly agree with your rebuttal...the thought that immigrants must conform to the system is ridiculous...

When people move to other immigrant cultures they are allowed to bring with and retain their cultural identity. In fact, their host nations often recognize that their backgrounds add color and richness to the culture overall. Sweden as a nation state, one nation one people, has a narrow identity that it cannot and should not expect people from over 200 countries who live here to fit into...rather the immigrant should strive to add to it...

Fitting in within Sweden means trying to become "Swedish" well the Swedes have you beat there. Celebrate the differences and live life on your own terms...integration practically speaking in Sweden is a failed concept...

I beleive the table should be turned and instead all Swedes should go through an integration program of their own learning how to accept immigrants into their business and personal lives...

[Furu]

Did Sweden choose immigrants or the immigrants choose Sweden.

[krigeren]

Thats a mixed bag. Many ended up here as asylum seekers so in some cases Sweden chose them. In other cases people willingly settled here.

I think I see where you are going with this...

I do not believe immigrants should integrate if integration means fitting in. For immigrants to fit into Sweden under the pre-conceived notions of people who live here is limiting and degrading.

Rather...immigrants should expand what Sweden already is by contributing...contributing from the context of owning their own identity their own self and deriving benefit for Sweden and themselves by such actions.

[Furu]

So will it be correct to state that people who choose Sweden should not complain, but people who Sweden chooses should get equal opportunities.

What refugees are you referring here.

1. Assigned through UNHCR system.

2. One who show up in Sweden and apply for Asylum.

[krigeren]

People have the right to complain. Immigrants who come here have the right to change the system just as anyone else does. Power rests in the hand of the individual to drive their own destiny.

Your way of thinking limits dialogue, expression, and overall thought on the matter is limiting. It seems you beleive the power of the status quo rests in the hands of some collective body...when..to reiterate it rests in the hands of each one of us.

The movements in Sweden to disrupt the society for its own benefit in terms of moving from a homogeneous Sweden 1.0 to a multi cultural Sweden 2.0 is well underway. Sweden is an export oriented society...such societies should mirror their client base...therefore Sweden will benefit from being a multicultural society.

Today these are the largest export markets for Sweden.

Germany 10.4%, Norway 9.5%, Denmark 7.4%, UK 7.3%, US 6.6%, Finland 6.3%, Netherlands 5.1%, France 4.9%, Belgium 4.4%.

A previous poster said..well most of our exports are to Nordic countries...well in large part thats true...if you want to maintain those markets and not add others thats short sighted. Rather I say expand your horizons..become agile..compete in other markets..in the Middle East, in Russia, Asia...etc...

Sweden has the infrastructure (highly experienced in the industrialization process) and resources (immigrants from 200 nations) to do it...the problem is it does not have the mentality and that is what needs to change.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

But you find me a Swede under 50 who doesn't speak at least reasonable English, and I think it's fair to assume that any Swede who is required to speak business English at work will have a high level of competency in the language. They will also have perfect Swedish. That means they have a higher level of merit than a native English speaker with little or no Swedish. Obviously the Swede's going to get the job.

What are you suggesting that Sweden does here? Employing people who can only speak to half your client base is going to improve trade?

[krigeren]

I think you are looking at the problem with a bit of a narrow mind...

Much more important than language barriers is the need for immigrants here to find work that matches their educational background.

Since Swedish companies won't hire them the immigrants need to develop and build strong immigrant networks and support systems here.

In an globalized world Sweden is placing way too high a value on its culture and language...a culture and language that most immigrants here really don't have such high opinions of. It would be different if Sweden took an approach like Finland and basically only opened its doors for business and not immigrants in general. However, Sweden has become a multi cultural country in a very few short decades...and its quite impossible for Sweden to do anything other than embrace it.

If Swedes, particularly business owners, dont start figuring out how to use the immigrants as a resource, or the immigrants do not receive more opportunity...well don't blame me when some disgruntled guy from some war zone applies his skills making car bombs to Sweden...the longer that Swedes exclude people from participating in the society the greater chance of catastrophic events will happen...and the continuation and spread of mini mafias, etc...

I mean...those gangs roaming Sweden jacking airbags, computers, etc are not making any real money doing it and it ends up being about survival...those same people would most likely gladly accept a decent 9 to 5 job and probably give up their life of crime.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

What is the Finnish approach?

As for the rest of it, well. I'm from London, we speak English there and we have a lot of foreign residents, always have. Some, those with useful skills, find work. Others don't, and either go home or hang about robbing people. We also have a large scale problem with gangs of professional criminals from foreign countries, who (like any good entrepreneur) prefer to place themselves in a larger market. We have been known to experience the odd bomb from time to time. None of what you suggest is exclusive to Sweden - in fact the key difference I see is that there's much less of it here.

Swedish employers are not obliged to give jobs to immigrants who don't have the necessary skills. Just because you're foreign doesn't mean I have to like you - it certainly doesn't mean I have to give you a job.

[Streja]

But it would be good if they would when the applicants have the necessary skills. Sometimes the applicants do have the skills and don't get a chance.

[krigeren]

What is the Finnish approach?As for the rest of it, well. I'm from London, we speak English there and we have a lot of foreign residents, always have. Some, those with u ... (show full quote)

What is the Finnish approach?

As for the rest of it, well. I'm from London, we speak English there and we have a lot of foreign residents, always have. Some, those with useful skills, find work. Others don't, and either go home or hang about robbing people. We also have a large scale problem with gangs of professional criminals from foreign countries, who (like any good entrepreneur) prefer to place themselves in a larger market. We have been known to experience the odd bomb from time to time. None of what you suggest is exclusive to Sweden - in fact the key difference I see is that there's much less of it here.

Swedish employers are not obliged to give jobs to immigrants who don't have the necessary skills. Just because you're foreign doesn't mean I have to like you - it certainly doesn't mean I have to give you a job. ... (hide full quote)

There are not many immigrants in Finland so not so many problems with immigrants.

Your attitude about Swedish employers not being obliged...Swedish employers are obliged to do many things..the unions and laws deem it so...

I beleive that if immigrants in Sweden united, just 10% of the 20% or 90,000 that they could via peaceful protests, campaigning, networking could very well have similar power as the unions do and force employers to hire immigrants just as the unions force employers to the bargaining table. Their is such polarization regarding this issue it seems the only path for immigrants to go.