(edit title) Is Sweden an Apartheid State? De Facto and De jure any difference? Options

[Freja]

Krigern,

Albeit there is some merit to your observations and ambitions to progress things the way you spin and frame it in WE (the immigrants) against YOU (the native Swedes) is unfortunately cancelling any positive and constructive power in your posts.

You have quite clearly in these forums stated that you 1) don't see any need to learn Swedish 2) you don't want to interact with Swedes 3) you don't want your family to have any more integration with society or local community that absolutely necessary 4) you don't like (m)any aspects of the country/culture/people.

As a result your comments reads like a manifesto of someone who is trying to invade the country stealth wise with an ambition to change it, but only to suit your needs. It comes across, despite some good observations and suggestions, as The Big Ego Project. You have no interest in progressing the country. Your interest is only to change things to progress you, and you hope to rally as many people as possible to your cause, the WEs, against the YOUs.

The most nonsensical of your arguments are those against the Swedish language. I no country in the world could you chart a successful path without a good enough command in the local language. And there are some obvious, for most, reasons for that. Sure, set up your own export business and employ people that have poor command of the Swedish language and see how that goes, if you belive in it. And, fair enough, I can see situations it could work, but those are exeptions. What's your credentials in the export sector? Why do you think you are an authority on the Swedish export sector, a group of companies that are, and have been for a long time, leaders in their industries just thanks to them being incredibly sucessful exporters.

Your project of trying to dismantle the Swedish language is meaningless. Instead, learn it -I've seen in this thread, at last, you are saying you could - so that you can participate in debates and argue your ideas where they get heard and count instead. And if you really have a genuine interest in progressing our country drop the whole WE against YOU demagoguery and show us you can appreciate this to be a common project that where the interest of the WEs and the YOUs align. Because it does!

Your WE and YOU stance unfortunately generates and feeds the dark sentiments of racism/discrimination and reversed-racism/discrimination in an unfortunate way.

And that is my biggest problem with your posts. You deploy the same argument and tactics as those you set out to critisise.

I do agree with you that Sweden needs to get much better at making sure the immigrants/expats that gets here get into the workforce/entrepreneurial sector much fast and much easier. Immigrants/expats, on the other hand, need to learn much quicker how the Swedish model works and appreciating the obligations that comes with all those free-bees they have been offered.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

There are not many immigrants in Finland so not so many problems with immigrants. Your attitude about Swedish employers not being obliged...Swedish employers are obliged to do ... (show full quote)

There are not many immigrants in Finland so not so many problems with immigrants.

Your attitude about Swedish employers not being obliged...Swedish employers are obliged to do many things..the unions and laws deem it so...

I beleive that if immigrants in Sweden united, just 10% of the 20% or 90,000 that they could via peaceful protests, campaigning, networking could very well have similar power as the unions do and force employers to hire immigrants just as the unions force employers to the bargaining table. Their is such polarization regarding this issue it seems the only path for immigrants to go. ... (hide full quote)

So Finland's solution to immigrant integration is not have many immigrants. I'm not sure kicking immigrants out of Sweden will actually improve their opportunities for work in Sweden.

Swedish employers are obliged to do many things. Employing unsuitable people just because they're foreign is not one of them. Nor should it be, ever, anywhere in the world. Employers should be free to select the person they think will best do the job and fit into the organisation. If that's a Swede because the Swede speaks Swedish, and the job is in Sweden with a Swedish speaking workforce, that's fine. Discrimination is when a person is not given a job just because they aren't Swedish. That is already not allowed.

I would want no part in any campaign that forces companies to hire people on the basis of their nationality, and can honestly say hats off, that's the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever seen on this forum.

[krigeren]

Krigern,Albeit there is some merit to your observations and ambitions to progress things the way you spin and frame it in WE (the immigrants) against YOU (the native Swedes) i ... (show full quote)

Krigern,

Albeit there is some merit to your observations and ambitions to progress things the way you spin and frame it in WE (the immigrants) against YOU (the native Swedes) is unfortunately cancelling any positive and constructive power in your posts.

You have quite clearly in these forums stated that you 1) don't see any need to learn Swedish 2) you don't want to interact with Swedes 3) you don't want your family to have any more integration with society or local community that absolutely necessary 4) you don't like (m)any aspects of the country/culture/people.

As a result your comments reads like a manifesto of someone who is trying to invade the country stealth wise with an ambition to change it, but only to suit your needs. It comes across, despite some good observations and suggestions, as The Big Ego Project. You have no interest in progressing the country. Your interest is only to change things to progress you, and you hope to rally as many people as possible to your cause, the WEs, against the YOUs.

The most nonsensical of your arguments are those against the Swedish language. I no country in the world could you chart a successful path without a good enough command in the local language. And there are some obvious, for most, reasons for that. Sure, set up your own export business and employ people that have poor command of the Swedish language and see how that goes, if you belive in it. And, fair enough, I can see situations it could work, but those are exeptions. What's your credentials in the export sector? Why do you think you are an authority on the Swedish export sector, a group of companies that are, and have been for a long time, leaders in their industries just thanks to them being incredibly sucessful exporters.

Your project of trying to dismantle the Swedish language is meaningless. Instead, learn it -I've seen in this thread, at last, you are saying you could - so that you can participate in debates and argue your ideas where they get heard and count instead. And if you really have a genuine interest in progressing our country drop the whole WE against YOU demagoguery and show us you can appreciate this to be a common project that where the interest of the WEs and the YOUs align. Because it does!

Your WE and YOU stance unfortunately generates and feeds the dark sentiments of racism/discrimination and reversed-racism/discrimination in an unfortunate way.

And that is my biggest problem with your posts. You deploy the same argument and tactics as those you set out to critisise.

I do agree with you that Sweden needs to get much better at making sure the immigrants/expats that gets here get into the workforce/entrepreneurial sector much fast and much easier. Immigrants/expats, on the other hand, need to learn much quicker how the Swedish model works and appreciating the obligations that comes with all those free-bees they have been offered. ... (hide full quote)

I never made it an us vs. them issue. The society here polarized the immigration issue long before I came around. This issue is not about me or my ego its about 100's of thousands of people in Sweden who are facing continued and passive racism and discrimination in their lives.

In many of my posts I have stated how Swedes and immigrants can work together for the benefit of both. You are just being selective..but if they can't work together (as seems to be the case in society..then they have no choice but to work apart).

I am not trying to dismantle Swedish..globalization is doing that job...honestly..Sweden is probably doing more to dismantle Swedish than anything else...the labor market here for youth causes many of them to be resentful of the society and many are looking for something new and better.

There is nothing egotistical about wanting to live life the way one wants to..its called freedom. There are many countries in the world where immigrants may not speak the local language and find success. For example, in south Florida there are millions of people who speak all day in Spanish and there are 100's of thousands who rarely speak English and those people are rich and poor, happy and sad..a full society within a society. There are other nations that are bi-lingual.

Take for example Sweden...change only comes in terms of a language decision due to Sweeping circumstances. Perhaps, Sweden in a generation will be under that same pressure. However, I doubt the language will be English..I beleive it will be Arabic...and I really don't beleive that's a bad thing as in a globalized world speaking a world language can never hurt.

Look its fine to be frustrated but don't channel your frustration on me take it out somewhere else.

[krigeren]

I would want no part in any campaign that forces companies to hire people on the basis of their nationality, and can honestly say hats off, that's the most ridiculous sugg ... (show full quote)

I would want no part in any campaign that forces companies to hire people on the basis of their nationality, and can honestly say hats off, that's the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever seen on this forum. ... (hide full quote)

That is basically what affirmative action was in America. It was about giving minorities opportunities within the labor market. I beleive in Sweden that same policy is desperately needed here.

Without affirmative action in America they would have never elected a black president. Affirmative action was the winding down of a civil rights movement that took place over many decades in the US and overall was very positive for the country.

I think Sweden needs a civil rights movement and the society overall would benefit from it, including affirmative action. I am not talking about staffing of unqualified people I am talking about staffing an ethnic minority over the ethnic majority all things being equal...because Sweden desperately needs that as there are just too many stories of minorities being excluded from the job market here for no good reason other than the color of their skin or their last name.

There are several facts that point to this such as people changing their names to sound more Swedish so they have better job prospects...that there alone clearly identifies a level of xenophobia in the society that is unacceptable.

[Lt. Gonville Bromhead]

Think you talk a load of shite, mate.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

I think you need to make a distinction between immigrants who can't get a job because of their name or race or nationality and immigrants who can't get a job because they don't speak Swedish. This will help you distinguish between discrimination and market forces.

[Freja]

I never made it an us vs. them issue.

Yes you do. You just don't see it, or understand it.

I am not trying to dismantle Swedish..globalization is doing that job...honestly..Sweden is probably doing more to dismantle Swedish than anything else...the labor market here ... (show full quote)

I am not trying to dismantle Swedish..globalization is doing that job...honestly..Sweden is probably doing more to dismantle Swedish than anything else...the labor market here for youth causes many of them to be resentful of the society and many are looking for something new and better. ... (hide full quote)

Facts and reality are against you, now again. More people than ever before in the history of mankind speak Swedish today.

Look its fine to be frustrated but don't channel your frustration on me take it out somewhere else.

I think it is only fine to be frustrated to a certian extent. It will harm you if it is severe and long-term. Something that your many posts, and threads in which you keep arguing the same things over and over and over again, and more and more and more spirited/desperatly indicates that you could suffer from.

And most, not all, of them are nonsense.

[krigeren]

Yes you do. You just don't see it, or understand it.Facts and reality are against you, now again. More people than ever before in the history of mankind speak Swedish toda ... (show full quote)

Yes you do. You just don't see it, or understand it.

Facts and reality are against you, now again. More people than ever before in the history of mankind speak Swedish today.

I think it is only fine to be frustrated to a certian extent. It will harm you if it is severe and long-term. Something that your many posts, and threads in which you keep arguing the same things over and over and over again, and more and more and more spirited/desperatly indicates that you could suffer from.

And most, not all, of them are nonsense. ... (hide full quote)

Blah, Blah, we disagree so what? I could stoop to personal attacks on you but I will refrain from doing so..I don't need to dig in the dirt to prove a point.

Regarding the language...more people speak English than ever before, more people speak Arabic than ever before. Look at it in a different context...name another country of 9 million or so that changed the demographics of the population in 20 years from being homogeneous to being so diverse? Think about other trends...Look at America now, what would someone say if Arkansas said, well we are going to only speak German here they would laugh it off. Yes, we have Louisiana where they speak French and English and thats great. However, how long do you think it will be, before the first country in Europe adopts another EU language as the primary language?? When EU nations joined the EU they started a trend where the likely outcome will be a supra nation state with just a handful of common languages and the rest will die out.

[Streja]

Catalonia.

[jack sprat]

Meaning what precisely?
You won't find many people in Catalonia who don't speak Castilian Spanish,(and quite often need
to),,or in Basque country,or Galicia or Valencia or other areas with traditional languages,...,...and they'd be fools if they didn't,regardless of whether or not they ever get full independance.
It's simply swimming against an inevitable tide...,better to go with it and learn something much more useful..

[Freja]

Blah, Blah, we disagree so what? I could stoop to personal attacks on you but I will refrain from doing so..

Much appreciated and a welcome improvement from your previous post. I will return the favour.

On your other point, change is good! And yes, EU will off course change the face of Europe and her constituent countries for ever. Will the Swedish, or other small, languages disappear in the process of this happening, or the globalisation process? Most likely not.

Why? Humans have always applied an enormous value to diversity and the utility of choice. A cultural and linguistically homogenous Europe would be counter to this desire for diversity and choice, which the multitude of Europe offers her citizens. This diversity and choices of cultures, languages and lifestyles cater for our different preferences for how and where we want to live our lives, and there is ENORMOUS value in this for us Europeans. I would allege that the value of this is so great it simply can't be over estimated even. Our languages are mere one manifestation of is.

Funnily enough, the EU project has two very distinct but also contrary trends to it: more integration and alignment AND more internal separation.

This is off course an expression of making Europe more integrated by aligning and integrate more with each other, for economic, political and perhaps even cultural reasons. But, the opposing force, the separation, is off course an expression of our desire not only to keep, but perhaps even to strengthen, our local/regional/national cultures and identities. None of us want to be 'blanded down', or 'wall-marted down" perhaps.

The value that is generated by integration is that it offers us more choice (freer movement of products, capital and labour) and the value related to separation forces is related to the maintained/increased diversity.

Nope, I don't belive that globalisation or EU will water down our local/regional/national cultures in the long run. Sweden is a good example of that. It has never been as diverse as it is now. And personally I don't think there is anything threatening to our national culture in that. I think it is enriching.

[Streja]

Meaning what precisely?You won't find many people in Catalonia who don't speak Castilian Spanish,(and quite often need to),,or in Basque country,or Galicia or Valencia ... (show full quote)

Meaning what precisely?
You won't find many people in Catalonia who don't speak Castilian Spanish,(and quite often need
to),,or in Basque country,or Galicia or Valencia or other areas with traditional languages,...,...and they'd be fools if they didn't,regardless of whether or not they ever get full independance.
It's simply swimming against an inevitable tide...,better to go with it and learn something much more useful.. ... (hide full quote)

I just mentioned a country with 9 million that has had a huge influx of immigrants.

Jack, I was recently there and there are a lot of Catalans that are working for independence now, staging referendums. They are of course useless as only the people who decide to vote do, and they are probably going to be the ones who say yes.

Catalan is the language they speak at home, and it will not disappear.

[planet.sweden]

No Sweden is not an apartheid point, and its both silly to try and compare it to one and insulting to those who have lived under real apartheid.

You say : "I beleive all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to fight for their share of the power in this country. Until we have seats at every level of government, every level of business, we will not truly be able to set our own course in this country"

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Swedes as you may or may not have noticed have created a rather successful country. This compares sharply with the many failed countries in the world. Part of the reason for this is Swedes don't go in for the sort of hyperbolic nonsense espoused by you. The last thing this successful country needs is people like you trying to whip up resentments and a belief that immigrants have a right to grab power. They don't. They had a right to grab power back home. Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you?

[nicecupoftea]

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from. Having made the ... (show full quote)

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you? ... (hide full quote)

your come up with the same arguments and words as every other ignorant racist. asshat.

[krigeren]

No Sweden is not an apartheid point, and its both silly to try and compare it to one and insulting to those who have lived under real apartheid. You say : "I beleive all ... (show full quote)

No Sweden is not an apartheid point, and its both silly to try and compare it to one and insulting to those who have lived under real apartheid.

You say : "I beleive all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to fight for their share of the power in this country. Until we have seats at every level of government, every level of business, we will not truly be able to set our own course in this country"

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Swedes as you may or may not have noticed have created a rather successful country. This compares sharply with the many failed countries in the world. Part of the reason for this is Swedes don't go in for the sort of hyperbolic nonsense espoused by you. The last thing this successful country needs is people like you trying to whip up resentments and a belief that immigrants have a right to grab power. They don't. They had a right to grab power back home. Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you? ... (hide full quote)

Its your mindset that is responsible for the division in this country...that mentality is like a finger that can't stop pulling at the scab. Its that self centered sense of propriety and arrogance that will be the downfall of people like you and your ilk. You think you create an impenetrable bastion and then all of a sudden it collapses around you and it comes to pass that your fortress was just a house of cards. This is what happened in South Africa, The Southern United States, and it is what will happen here.

Lets break Apartheid down into its simplest terms...

"The aim of apartheid was to separate all the people of South Africa into small independent nations. But the National Party government did not want to spend a lot of money on this project. Also, they wanted to keep most of South Africa's land for white people. Especially the rich parts of the country, like the gold mines of Johannesburg. They also wanted black people to work in these mines for little money. But they did not want black men's families to live in the same area."

Although Sweden does not practice de facto apartheid in does practice de jure apartheid. We see blatant examples of this in schools where the majority are immigrants with barely any ethnic Swedes, how are those children supposed to integrate? Walk into companies in Sweden and look at the rosters of people working there...who occupies the white collar jobs and management positions...show me the diversity among those ranks...and I will reject my notion of Sweden being an apartheid state...but the fact remains is you can't show me that diversity in terms of any meaningful numbers then as I said...Sweden is a apartheid state informally...

We need studies that demonstrate numbers of minorities in the workplace and the parity between immigrants and ethnic Swedes in terms of workforce integration. Minorities must band together and fight the power just as Public Enemy and Chuck D said...because that is the paradigm we are living under now in Sweden.