(edit title) Is Sweden an Apartheid State? De Facto and De jure any difference? Options

[mc87]

I would agree with most posters that Sweden is not an Apartheid State. However, I can still see that the poster makes some valid points with respects to exclusion and segregation. What really amazes me is that the majority of the posters "blame" immigrants for their current situation.

The most common claim for example, is learn Swedish. On this topic most people are so quick at blaming the “immigrant”. The argument generally goes something like this: the immigrant decides NOT to learn Swedish and therefore can NOT obtain high paying jobs etc. Etc. Have you considered external factors that may affect the ability of an individual (‘immigrant’) to learn Swedish? For example right now there is a lack of funding making the waiting list for SFI in some areas more than three months? There is a lack of specialised training which means that “immigrants” who are educated in specific area are unable to learn Swedish in their related field. Oh, and even if an “immigrant” had the required language skills I am inclined to think that unless the degree came from Sweden – it probably won’t be trusted.

On the same level, the arguments about ‘knowing’ Swedish culture which range from ‘Immigrants’ do not want to integrate, and end with arguments such as “Swedes know their own culture better and therefore get the jobs before immigrants”. Are you serious? Both of these arguments go above and beyond ‘integration’ and are starting sounding like claims of ‘assimilation’. And the first claim is, once again, focusing the blame entirely on the ‘immigrant’. ...

[krigeren]

Their is de facto apartheid and de jure apartheid.

I say that Sweden practices de jure apartheid.

Sweden is very good at dotting the i's and crossing the t's when it comes to keeping up appearances so it looks good in comparison with other countries. For example,

A former poster commented on this link in regards to Sweden being a stellar example...the problem is while these programs exist, the integration and use of these programs is a whole completely different issue...companies do not take advantage of the incentives...some of this is due to lack of education..but a lot of it is due to maintaining a "Swedish workplace" at all costs...not all of that desire necessarily comes from the employer them-self but from unions as well.

http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2549.html

To reiterate, yes, Sweden tries to look good on paper, but in actuality the society remains very tough for immigrants to integrate into...Its critical that people understand that Sweden is now a country of immigrants at higher levels per capita than the US or the UK...for Sweden's own sake it better start acting like it and giving more opportunities.

If people keep burying their head in the sand about this issue its only going to get worse.

I mean...I am a moderate..I want reforms that benefit society and the immigrant. I want to get immigrants jobs and work. Overall, I want immigrants to benefit the society overall and be viewed as an asset.

However, there is an entire cleavage of immigrants who are extremist..if they organize there is going to be problems here much larger than ever seen before...

I stand 110% behind what I say. The racist and those that discriminate will give whatever excuse to maintain the status quo.

Lets take a look at the aims of Apartheid in South Africa...

The aim of apartheid was to separate all the people of South Africa into small independent nations. But the National Party government did not want to spend a lot of money on this project. Also, they wanted to keep most of South Africa's land for white people. Especially the rich parts of the country, like the gold mines of Johannesburg. They also wanted black people to work in these mines for little money. But they did not want black men's families to live in the same area.

Look at how Sweden operates today functionally...there are many parallels to the above statement...just broaden it out to reflect on immigrants overall.

Look at some of the school in Sweden with barely any Swedish kids..how are those kids supposed to integrate...I suppose we have to start looking at busing as well.

[Lt. Gonville Bromhead]

Unfortunately, countries cannot base their employment opportunities (which are largely dictated by the private sector anyway) or social sectors around fitting in with the needs of immigrants.

It is the duty of the immigrant (us) to fit in with the culture that we have voluntarily moved in to.

I have no time for fellow immigrants whinging about not finding a job which caters specifically for the language they speak - the internet and books given by the SFI are more than enough. If the incentive is not there to learn, then it is the immigrants fault.

[Luckystrike]

Apartheid?? I dont think you know what apartheid actually is, or what it's like to experience OR your from an African country and have a twisted/warped idea of how the world works.

[krigeren]

I would agree with most posters that Sweden is not an Apartheid State. However, I can still see that the poster makes some valid points with respects to exclusion and segregat ... (show full quote)

I would agree with most posters that Sweden is not an Apartheid State. However, I can still see that the poster makes some valid points with respects to exclusion and segregation. What really amazes me is that the majority of the posters "blame" immigrants for their current situation.

The most common claim for example, is learn Swedish. On this topic most people are so quick at blaming the “immigrant”. The argument generally goes something like this: the immigrant decides NOT to learn Swedish and therefore can NOT obtain high paying jobs etc. Etc. Have you considered external factors that may affect the ability of an individual (‘immigrant’) to learn Swedish? For example right now there is a lack of funding making the waiting list for SFI in some areas more than three months? There is a lack of specialised training which means that “immigrants” who are educated in specific area are unable to learn Swedish in their related field. Oh, and even if an “immigrant” had the required language skills I am inclined to think that unless the degree came from Sweden – it probably won’t be trusted.

On the same level, the arguments about ‘knowing’ Swedish culture which range from ‘Immigrants’ do not want to integrate, and end with arguments such as “Swedes know their own culture better and therefore get the jobs before immigrants”. Are you serious? Both of these arguments go above and beyond ‘integration’ and are starting sounding like claims of ‘assimilation’. And the first claim is, once again, focusing the blame entirely on the ‘immigrant’. ... ... (hide full quote)

You make many strong points. I agree with you that Sweden is not an apartheid state officially, however, we may disagree that unofficially it is.

What you are saying about SFI is absolutely true...and SFI DOES NOT prepare immigrants for the job market. Immigrants that complete level D can only handle basic blue collar jobs.

Regarding your last paragraph...no wonder why there is such polarization..people are not very well educated on immigrant issues to begin with..the typical reaction is "go home" well for many immigrants they are home...and of course they will see fit to decorate their lives as they see fit.

Good stuff...

[byke]

As an aside...and as an immigrant myself, if it's so bad in Sweden, we are all welcome to return home.

That last line really makes me question your legitimacy.

I have no time for fellow immigrants whinging about not finding a job which caters specifically for the language they speak - the internet and books given by the SFI are more ... (show full quote)

I have no time for fellow immigrants whinging about not finding a job which caters specifically for the language they speak - the internet and books given by the SFI are more than enough. If the incentive is not there to learn, then it is the immigrants fault. ... (hide full quote)

Again, that seems to be a contradiction given your posts on here.

[missla]

I think Immigrant is a very general term and we have to bear in mind which type we are talking bout.

In my view there are two types: the one that Do try to integrate and the one that doesn't give a shit for that. So it can't be said that students belong to the first and refugees belon to the second. On the contrary!

As I am new to Sweden (arrived in August) I will talk about my experience in Ireland and then maybe someone can compare it to Sweden better than I could do.

During the boom in Ireland, many immigrants moved there, mainly Polish, Eslovakians and even Brazilians. What I noticed withing the Brazilian community was that there was these two types of immigrants but unfortunatelly 80% of them belonged to the second group, the "non-integrationist" one. All they did was make a fortune in Ireland, complain about the weather, about the food and even about the people (which for me are absolutely amazing people). Of course they were doing shitty jobs as Irish themselves refused to do it but I don't blame them for that as these Brazilians did not make any effort whatsoever to learn English. They were closed within their own community, so at some stage in some villages there was the brazilian priest, the brazilian doctor, the brazilian supermarket, etc. They themselves told me 100 times "what's the point in learning english if in a e years time we will go back home with all the money we made here?". I strongly disagree with this position and I think it is a pure ignorant thought.

The second type of immigrant, which I include myself, not only spoke the language (fluently or fairly) but tried to learn about the country, met MANY Irish people which become good friends, and although the weather is shite really interested in exploring the beauties of the country and in learning about the history and culture which is absolutely rich! And I am sure depending on the educational degree (regardless of where it was taken) could get better jobs, as good as Irish jobs.

So I left Ireland and came to Sweden to do a Masters and I have been really trying to integrate into the society just as I did in Ireland. I have started learning Swedish but I find it a hard language but still I wanna learn as I am here in the country. However I thought it would be easier to integrate as everyone speaks English, but that's not what I see. The few sweeds in my class don't integrate with the rest of the foreign students, it doesn't matter how hard we try. I also have been trying to find a job in my area, Communications, but I haven't been succeed yet. I speak 3 languages fluently, have plenty background experience and I've been really working hard on the swedish but how can I in fact improve it if it is basically restricted to everyday situations and classroom?

I agree 100% that to get a better job in a country it is fair enough that you speak the language of it and that everyone should try to integrate instead of just complain about it, but here in Sweden I see that even in English-speaking jobs they require fluent Swedish. In addition to that, even in shitty jobs as kitchen porters, cleaning etc they require fluent Swedish. In this point, I find Ireland more tolerant with immigrants with no or little English.

And to finalise, I agree wih a comment above (I don't remember now who said it) that in times of a boom, First world countries open their doors to immigrants as their very inhabitants refuse to do the dirty jobs. However, in times of crisis, they turn to these same immigrants and accuse them of "stealing the job" and do all they can to send them back home. It is true though that some immigrants are making use of the welfare state without contributing back to the society but to generalise that all immigrants are like that is non-sense.

These are my views so far. I might be wrong, as I said I haven't been here long enough to know exactly how it is...

[Blackman_for_Blondes]

@missla

Do you think you have the God given right to hop from country to country in the EU and for everyone to accommodate you? I hope not! If you were from an EU yes, but Brazil please give us break! This is the idea that drives me mad people thinking they come and go as they like..older immigrants never behaved like that.

[missla]

@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want.

[krigeren]

^^

[Rick Methven]

@BlackmanI have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it ... (show full quote)

@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want. ... (hide full quote)

If your attitude is to move on from one country to another because they want you to speak the language of the country to get a decent job then you are going to either spend the rest of your life flitting from country to country or going back to Brazil. It is normal in any country including Brazil to require local language skills to get a good job. I was once offered a job with EMBRAER. I had the skills that they where looking for and the language of aviation is English which is my native tongue, but I would still have to be able to speak Brazilian to get along with local colleagues and deal with the bureaucracy.

[Lt. Gonville Bromhead]

@BlackmanI have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it ... (show full quote)

@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want. ... (hide full quote)

Whether you agree with varying international law or not is moot - you don't have that right to come and go as you please.

[missla]

@Rick

That's not my intention, it's the opposite. Before I lived in Ireland I already spoke English fluently and I love learning languages. As I said, I already speak 3 languages and I am very excited about learning a fourth one, Swedish, although I find it very hard. And I agree with you that it is absolutely normal in any country to require the local language and I think they are right in doing it. You are living in the country, so integrate (wih language, culture, people, etc).

It is almost impossible for a foreigner survive in Brazil with no portuguese, for instance! My point was that among the countries I have lived (Brazil, Ireland and Sweden), I found Ireland the most tolerant regarding speaking the native language as I saw many immigrants with no English having no problems in geting a job(of course in shitty jobs and before the downturn!).

I think I was misunderstood!

[Rick Methven]

It is almost impossible for a foreigner survive in Brazil with no portuguese,

Portugese?

I always remember being told by a Brazilan friend in Rio

"Nosemos hablamos Portaniol"

[Blackman_for_Blondes]

xenophobism...you use that word lightly when you don't like something...I would love to live in the USA and work there but, I'm not allowed...fact, you on the other hand think you have right to go wherever you want and have the red carpet spread out for you..lol and then the one maybe black-men in here tells you that's wrong and iam racist ...LOL...My uncle and father came to the UK from Jamaica and were in the army they earned the right to stay and they worked at all kind of shit jobs afterwards and never complained...you don'tknow what xenophobism is my dear??? I see no signs here saying no Irish, no blacks, no dogs...ah ah?